Hi Mimi. Thanks for talking to us. Can you start just by introducing yourself?
I’m the mother of Daniel, who is one of the Ulm five. I’m from Dublin but currently living in London.
The trial of the Ulm 5 starts on 27th April. What is your perspective about what is happening?
Five young people are accused of engaging in a direct action at Elbit systems in Ulm, South-West Germany. Their aim was to prevent genocide – as Elbit is the main suplier of weapons to the genocide in Gaza. Property was damaged. No-one was hurt.
They stayed at the site and waited for the police to arrest them. Nobody was hurt in the action, and they were arrested peacefully. Since they were arrested on September 8th, they have been been in five different prisons in Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria.
We’re not allowed to speak with the people we visit about the case. So when I visit Daniel, I haven’t had a single conversation with them about the issues. But I do know that post-October 7th, Daniel, like so many people, was protesting in Berlin for nearly two years.
They were becoming increasingly concerned about how the police were treating protesters, and about how protests in Berlin and elsewhere in the world was doing nothing. Everybody was just talking, and the genocide was ramping up with tens of thousands of people killed, even tens of thousands of children.
It must be difficult trying to support Daniel when you’re living in a different country
It’s a huge strain on the family and on the families of the others in the five who are from other countries. We’ve just made a decision as a family that we need to visit Daniel at every opportunity that we have.
We’re only allowed to visit once a fortnight for 30 minutes, but we travel to Ulm for those 30 minutes every fortnight, because keeping that connection going is absolutely crucial.
Can you tell how Daniel’s morale is?
From what I can see, Daniel seems really well-focussed. Daniel is wry, funny, observant, thoughtful, even though they are in solitary confinement, 23 hours a day in a single cell with almost no access to any reading matter of choice.
They get just one hour a week in the gym, and that hour a week doesn’t always happen. It’s a very brutal experience for people who haven’t been convicted of anything.
I have family background in Germany, and know a lot about Germany, but I didn’t know about Untersuchungshaft and pre-trial detention. You can be put away for months on end in solitary confinement, on a suspicion alone. These five are going to have been in U-haft, some in solitary, for almost for 11 months before this trial is over
And they haven’t been convicted of anything
They’ve been through repeated bail appeals – Haftprüfungen and Haftbeschwerde. Each time the judges in various courts have heard these, they’ve given us a sense into their thinking. In a judge-only trial system, I’m concerned. Because they’re musing on all kinds of things about the nature of the action, the character and motivation of the defendants, and their likely behaviour were they to be released – all without hearing evidence from the defense.
But from a local level, up to the Oberlandesgericht in Stuttgart, each time they rehash or come up with with new ideas about why the five should not be allowed to be released. I don’t see the evidence.
There’s a campaign around the Ulm five. What are the primary demands of the campaign?
From day one, the lawyers have been asking for them to be released out of pre-trial detention. This action, for which they have not been convicted, caused only property damage. Nobody was hurt.
They’re alleging that these people are members of a criminal organization, which brings with it Section 129, with these incredibly restrictive surveillance activities that the police engage in. That’s part of the very difficult conditions that they’re being held in because they can’t speak about the case- They also have all of their letters surveilled. There’s a translator and police representatives present in every visit.
My ask would also be for people to attend the trial and observe it, because the media have been remarkably quiet on the topic up to now, and I would like there to be eyes on this trial, so that people can see not just the law play out, but also justice happen.
What are you specifically doing as part of the campaign? You’re visiting Daniel. You’re speaking at meetings. What else are you able to do?
I’m quite involved with a group of families, we’re looking to see how we can support prisoners and support one another as families. It’s extremely difficult when you’re having to go through this as a family and visiting somebody abroad for a 30 minute visit,
You’re based in London. Do you see parallels with what’s happening with the Ulm Five and with Palestine action in London?
I am not aware of any connections between them. But I do see a criminalization in Germany of protest and an increasing ramping up of the use of Section 129. Recently UN Special Rapporteurs called out Germany for using Section 129 against climate protesters.
This sense in multiple countries that protest should be shut down is really my core concern, the idea that citizens need to be stopped from protesting, that’s my biggest ask of all. Why is Germany using a rule that comes with huge restrictions on people’s liberty to create an air of menace around people who see an issue of justice.
In the case of Letzte Generation, it’s about the future of the planet. We haven’t been able to speak with the Ulm 5 about their motivation, but I understand it to be about the genocide. The world is standing by. And the German state’s response to it has been to use Section 129 to shut them down completely.
And do you think that Germany is being worse about this than other countries?
I think we’re seeing repression around the world ramping up. I don’t think it’s exclusive to Germany.
What can people do to support the Ulm five. They can go to hearings. Is there anything else that people can do?
Our big ask is for there to be support at the trial. Repeatedly in the bail hearings, the judges have used the mere presence of protesters to claim that this constituted evidence of a professionally run organization. I find it absolutely astonishing that people protesting about the criminalization of human rights defenders are supposed to constitute some kind of evidence of an organization. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.
But even though judges are attacking protesters, you do want people to be there?
Yeah, because If we melt away and hide, that’s presumably what some people want. What I would really like is for there to be more visibility for the fact that over half of Germans believe that there’s a genocide happening in Gaza, and that was as of last year. I’ll bet you that number is higher now. Over 60% of them believe that there are war crimes taking place in Gaza.
Now you have to ask yourself, if that’s what people in the country believe, then what are we doing here? Why are we throwing people in jail? I find it sort of incomprehensible, really.
Do you think that people know about the case?
No.
Staatsräson makes things really complicated in Germany. It often confuses people, it creates the idea that you can’t criticise Israel. And I think the confusion of criticism of policies and actions of the current government of Israel can make people feel uneasy.
That doesn’t take away even in that context, over half of people in Germany see genocide in Gaza, and over two-thirds see war crimes taking place. People believe that there’s something terrible going on in Gaza and nothing is happening to stop it.
When and where are the court cases going to be?
The court hearings start on 27th April. Unfortunately, the court has seen fit to schedule the trial on 16 random days across 3½ months from the end of April until the end of July. So a Monday here, a Friday there.
Do you think this is deliberate?
I have no idea as to what the Court’s reasoning for this is.
Where will it be?
It’s going to be held in Stuttgart, in the State Security chamber at Stammheim. For a case of property damage where nobody was even vaguely hurt in any way.
Do you have any final words?
I’m Daniel’s mum, so along with supporting the other families, all my attention and focus is on visiting Daniel, hoping that Daniel’s doing okay.
The Ulm 5 families have set up a number of financial appeals to help them travel to the court hearings. Please give generously to at least one of the following appeals:
